Eletronic music as a medium is now interwoven with nightlife culture, even in a lot of the experimental end of the spectrum. So that means for those of us who care about the medium, it’s time to face a reality about night venues: a lot of people, particularly women, don’t feel comfortable and safe.
Talk to regular clubgoers, and you’ll hear an unnerving number of tales about harassment. We’re not talking people just getting a little aggressive – we’re talking being groped repeatedly on the dance floor.
In the midst of lots of discussions about numbers of women and men going into music production, the fact that some are scared away from clubs simply because they can’t relax and have a good time is finally coming to light. Mixmag hit the issue this spring:
We need to talk about sexual harassment in nightclubs
And Thump (VICE) has picked up on the story, too, noting the appearance of consent business cards at festivals, and reporting the movement is spreading to Decibel Festival when it hits Seattle this month. Social media is making stories of assault go viral, that same publication reports.
So, how do you respond? One group is sending a clear message to anyone crossing a line by simply handing them a card. “Consent is sexy” cards, pictured here, set some boundaries in a clear way. And a Portland, Oregon-based group behind them wants to make these cards more commonplace, as well as create environments (in person and online) to have frank discussions about how we relate to one another, and how to make these situations more safe.
Not all electronic music is about clubs. But given that club elements are part of most festivals – even those covering experimental music – it’s now almost impossible to make electronic music without encountering these situations. And let’s be honest, some of us really love nightlife – and hate to hear, say, from our friends that they feel they don’t feel comfortable going out with us.
So I spoke to Cay Horiuchi, one of the organizers of C.A.R.E.S., about what we they’re doing, and how any of the rest of us might consider contributing. Their organization:
We are C.A.R.E.S., Compassionate And Respectful Engagement Squad. As active members of the electronic dance music community, we promote consent-aware interactions in nightlife settings. C.A.R.E.S. provides tools to address situations where boundaries may be crossed. We hope to foster safe environments and encourage discussion about consent, whether it has to do with flirting, sex, or simply respectful interactions with one another.
They also have a Facebook group, which is expanding this discussion:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/caresquad/
CDM: Can you tell us a little bit about what your organization does? And you’re heading out to Decibel?
Cay: We are a group of friends based in Portland, Oregon. We create and distribute the cards and provide workshops at festivals on the West Coast. Our main objective is to promote consent-aware interactions in nightlife settings. We provide tools — for now, cards and posters — to address situations where boundaries may be crossed. We hope to foster safe environments and encourage discussion about consent. We aim to:
- Empower partygoers to say no to uncomfortable situations
- Create a safer environment, especially when intoxicants are involved
- Offer respectful yet assertive ways to confront aggressors and to protect each other
I’m heading out to Decibel Festival with some of the C.A.R.E.S. members to distribute the cards created in collaboration with Decibel Festival. We are very excited about this opportunity to help the community foster a safer environment.
How did you get started?
Our conversation originally started at a New Year’s Eve party that we threw in 2013. Throughout the evening, we each noticed various incidents of uncomfortable/possibly dangerous encounters on and around the dancefloor. To our collective surprise and alarm, we each discovered that we had all experienced and witnessed such incidents of sexual assault at parties in the past. Sounds like you’ve been having similar conversation in your community in Berlin. I believe that by starting a discourse, we can get creative about how to tackle this issue together.
So, Mixmag ran this article in the spring — and, of course, this is pretty unnerving. We’re talking a really high incidence of people reaching out and groping other people. Is there any way to evaluate how, how frequently, and why this is happening?
This is devastating… It’s upsetting that some are taking advantage of loud, crowded environment to assault others. To your question about actual numbers, it is hard to tell – as we are all familiar with, the survivors tend to dismiss such harassment, while aggressors pretend that it didn’t happen or they simply don’t remember due to intoxication.
Although we don’t have the numbers, we know that various degrees of harassment happen frequently enough that many of our friends do not feel safe or worth it to go out at night to simply enjoy music. This is especially becoming a serious issue in Seattle, as Capitol Hill’s demographic is shifting from LGBTQ-friendly to a higher percentage of heterosexual men who feel entitled to harass others who are different from them.
I would like to believe that many aggressors are not completely ill-hearted, however. By going out, each of us is seeking a good time, a connection, and giving and receiving attraction. We are not there to intentionally cause harm. I think one of the reasons why this is happening is because aggressors have a preconception that a drinking environment gives them a free pass to cross others’ boundaries. They may have a wrong idea that a person dancing on the dancefloor means the person is looking for a specific types of attention. Intoxication in addition helps them become oblivious to social cues or what’s acceptable in general.
Let’s talk about gender and power dynamic – with harassment generally. Obviously, there’s something that disproportionately impacts women – and particularly straight women having to deal with straight guys. That said, is there a sense in the LGBTQ community that this is something that needs addressing? Is it something guys should worry about, too? And, for that matter, can we have those conversations without losing sight of the fact that this does disproportionately impact women?
This is an interesting point. C.A.R.E.S. believes that this is an issue not just among women. We acknowledge that this issue is broader and can apply to any of us, especially knowing some of our friends who actively participate in LGBTQ-friendly events.
At the same time, I agree that this issue disproportionately impacts women having to deal with aggressive straight men. For a long time, as an organization, we have been discussing how to effectively convince these aggressors that what they are doing is not okay, in an inoffensive manner. One of the reasons why it has been a challenge is because it takes a lot of guts for a person to confront an aggressive person who had already violated one’s boundary. Would they get mad if I said something? What’s the outcome? Am I going to get hurt? Would they even listen to me? Intoxication plays a huge role in this. That’s why we came up with cute and friendly cards to hand out to them so that we don’t necessarily have to confront them verbally but can be explicit at the same time.
So, what role can environment have? What can a club do? What’s the impact of your activities? What can individuals do, attending clubs? And is there a role for the people making the music? (We can talk about Berlin separately, but — I’m very curious what makes environments better or worse.)
There are many possibilities. For example, venues can train their employees on site to watch out for possibly dangerous situations. It would be great if venues are explicit at the entrance, stating clearly that they have zero-tolerance policy against harmful behaviors to others. They can also inform their clients that if there was such a case, they should directly seek help from the employees. Hollaback London, an anti-street harassment organization in London is doing a great job getting major venues like fabric and Ministry of Sound involved in their movement. We want to make this happen everywhere, not just in one city or region.
Our original idea was to discover more ideas by starting up a discourse with party goers. We hope to learn what people’s needs are so we can come up with better ideas to create a fun and safer environment.
At a venue, each individual can learn ahead of time that partying in a dark venue with loud music does not give them a permission to cross others’ boundaries. We also believe that getting friends and strangers you meet on the dance floor on board is generally good. We can create an environment where people feel safe to speak up, and people feel safe to support those who speak up.
Producers and DJs can endorse the message prior to the event, on the event page or fan page, to set the vibe. Performers have a great amount of respect from the audience, and I think it is great if they can be a part of the pro-consent movement.
The severity of this issue of course depends on the environment. My friends and I don’t go to certain venues with more frequent harassment. Generally, an event where people are there specifically for specific music seems to be better, while an event that is more ‘party-centric’ or alcohol heavy seems to be worse. There are different ways to handle each issue at each type of event.
What about the role of substances and alcohol? Obviously, making people consider their substance intake is part of the solution. But what do you do when people are altered, is there still some chance to work to keep people safer?
I think alcohol intoxication is especially problematic, but people have to party. I doubt we can have a solid conversation with highly intoxicated people at an event. However, there is a chance to maintain the safety of the venue. We are looking into bystander intervention. I read an article about the research they did and some interesting success stories from college kids. If friends are around, sounds like the best way is to distract them, instead of telling them that they should stop whatever they are doing at the moment.
As for C.A.R.E.S. cards, I have used them with those who won’t leave me alone, and it has been way more effective than trying to talk to them directly which I had to do in the past. I think cards are effective firstly because it prevents two parties from having a possible conflict. I’ve had many frustrating conversations that went too long with an aggressor, whom I’d rather not spend my time with. They would say, “but you like it right?” The thing is that you can’t really argue with a drunk person.
But, many of us felt strongly that we had to say something, do something. This can’t keep going. We want to have fun while feeling safe at events. We can’t just walk away from them. We wanted to feel empowered. We wanted to have a say in this situation in which our boundaries have been violated. So, the second reason for the C.A.R.E.S. cards’ success is that it gives the survivor a power to say no without directly interacting with the aggressor. The act of giving a card either puts the focus on something else or confuses them long enough to forget about what they were about to do. Who knows? They may find a card in the morning after and learn a thing or two.
Okay, so obviously there’s the question of consent, and there’s a lot of stuff we want to make sure stops happening. You also talk about discussing engagement, flirting, sex in general. There are concerns beyond just what not to do, yes?
Sure. I hope that our cards and conversations can direct people into having honest discussion about otherwise uncomfortable subject matters that are too important not to have. We hope that we can encourage people to have such conversations more openly.
We’ve talked mostly about clubs. To what extent does this information and support from a club environment apply beyond that context? Are there other contexts you think the kind of work you’re doing might be useful? Does the message need adjustment for those other situations?
The C.A.R.E.S. message can be applied beyond clubs and festivals. I think one way to do that is by having a panel discussion dedicated to consent awareness. Another way is to have diversity in the event you host whether it is a music conference or tech. By having a diversity of people lead workshops and panels, you suggest that you are in support of different communities and people – creating more inviting environment to all. The cards and posters we provide are form-shifting, and can be catered to different events and demographics, as seen in our collaboration with decibel festival 2015. Ideally, I think it is also good to have this type of discussions largely available outside of clubs/festivals/conferences, to take a more preventative approach. That way, people have a general agreement not to cross boundaries regardless of where they are at.
Lastly, to shift gears entirely — what are you looking forward to at Decibel?
I’m excited to see M.A.N.D.Y. at the boat party on Saturday. It’s gonna be super rad! But, to tell the truth, my soul calling is definitely The Breakfast Club on Sunday morning with our West Coast favorite, the Shameless crew. It’s on a roof top of a beautiful venue, and they throw one of the best, silliest parties with great music. It’s like a nice treat to close out my dancing marathon with fellow ravers. I can hardly wait.
Thanks, Cay. Wish I could be at Decibel – y’all have fun, Americans and touring artists!
And if CDM readers want to chime in, do let us know.
I realize it’s a little bit outside of the style of the usual tech-oriented CDM post, but I appreciate that you raised this here. I think it’s both bold and necessary. My hat is off.
I realize it’s a little bit outside of the style of the usual tech-oriented CDM post, but I appreciate that you raised this here. I think it’s both bold and necessary. My hat is off.
I realize it’s a little bit outside of the style of the usual tech-oriented CDM post, but I appreciate that you raised this here. I think it’s both bold and necessary. My hat is off.
Excellent! People deserve respect.
Excellent! People deserve respect.
Excellent! People deserve respect.
Well-done. Great stuff.
Well-done. Great stuff.
Well-done. Great stuff.
Preaching to the choir. Jerks with no respect are not going to do a 180 because of this or any other piece. The real trick is to get decent people to stop being bystanders and step up.
Preaching to the choir. Jerks with no respect are not going to do a 180 because of this or any other piece. The real trick is to get decent people to stop being bystanders and step up.
Preaching to the choir. Jerks with no respect are not going to do a 180 because of this or any other piece. The real trick is to get decent people to stop being bystanders and step up.
Very true. Don’t forget this also applies to females…just because you’re a girl, doesn’t mean I want you dancing on me.
Very true. Don’t forget this also applies to females…just because you’re a girl, doesn’t mean I want you dancing on me.
Very true. Don’t forget this also applies to females…just because you’re a girl, doesn’t mean I want you dancing on me.
Happy to see this piece here.
(One quibble: Consent is not “sexy”, it is _mandatory_.)
Happy to see this piece here.
(One quibble: Consent is not “sexy”, it is _mandatory_.)
Happy to see this piece here.
(One quibble: Consent is not “sexy”, it is _mandatory_.)
Thank you for this OFF TOPIC post.
This blog is always a great read and to see you talking about this is really heartening.
Here in australia domestic violence is finally getting some press oxygen so this post seems to be perfectly part of the ‘zeitgeist’.
Thanks again for such a GREAT blog.
Thank you for this OFF TOPIC post.
This blog is always a great read and to see you talking about this is really heartening.
Here in australia domestic violence is finally getting some press oxygen so this post seems to be perfectly part of the ‘zeitgeist’.
Thanks again for such a GREAT blog.
Thank you for this OFF TOPIC post.
This blog is always a great read and to see you talking about this is really heartening.
Here in australia domestic violence is finally getting some press oxygen so this post seems to be perfectly part of the ‘zeitgeist’.
Thanks again for such a GREAT blog.
i am supportive of this endeavour , however:
Scanning the article quickly i was concerned that this may be linked to deeper ‘underlaying issues’ and upon reading it in its entirety i believe that it indeed is.
An interesting quote – “This is especially becoming a serious issue in Seattle, as Capitol Hill’s demographic is shifting from LGBTQ-friendly to a higher percentage of heterosexual men who feel entitled to harass others who are different from them” – oh gosh, i read that as another cry of ‘the mainstream hetro’s are invading our enclave of self exile and celebration of difference’ arrgghhh.
Am i naive to believe that the origins of this ‘movement’ create and bring to the fore issues of gender that are not actually relevant to the issue of consent.
Overt displays of sexuality have been championed by both men and women in the world of nightlife for over two centuries, it’s an integral aspect of such culture. Unfortunately many people lack the decency and/or maturity to ‘behave’ appropriately in such an environment, particularly when alcohol and/or illicit substances are involved, and yes, lets face it ‘security’ employees are often a part of the problem, not the solution, so it really is up to us to look out for those around us.
As was commented it’s not just about ‘girls’ (for want of a better title) , many of we males are regularly ‘groped’ on dance floors by people of various sexes.
This is not a gender issue, it is one of common decency within public space.
Well, we go into that in the interview. Gender clearly is inseparable from the issue, because power imbalance is inseparable from the issue. So that’s both what causes women to more frequently be the object of harassment, and to feel more threatened by it. The latter is important – that means that even when guys are harassed or groped, they may feel more able to respond.
Also, I think you misread the line about Seattle and LGBTQ-friendly parties. No one is saying they’re upset about mainstream heterosexuals showing up at their parties. The complaint I read as meaning queer people are getting harassed by those guys.
And that’s another huge problem. We’re not just talking about some straight guys getting aggressive trying to pick up straight women, but also harassing people for being gay. That’s obviously something that needs to be fixed, because *of course* we want to be able to have everyone party together and still feel safe.
Now, safety is also something everyone needs to think about. So it is absolutely possible for a straight man (or anyone else) to become the victim of an assault, and a victim of violence.
But there’s no reason these discussions need to be mutually exclusive. We really have to talk about all of them – we need to be frank about all victims of assault, abuse, and violence, including men, and we need to talk about why there are imbalances around gender and sexual orientation (and any other identity).
Also, we need to be able to respond to concerns without getting defensive. If I’m out at a club and a friend complains that they were getting groped, obviously, they’re not complaining to me because they think I was the one groping them. 😉 They’re looking for someone to listen to them. And so the same is true online. If people complain online, they want people to listen. They aren’t accusing all men, or all straight men, or all mainstream heterosexuals – I mean, obviously, most of the people who read CDM have never been to Seattle. They’re just looking for someone to hear.
And it’s very much not common decency – in that it’s already commonly indecent.
Ok, so I see a girl in a club and she gives me the eye across the bar. I walk over and start chatting to her and we get on well. I go to give her a kiss as I’m a bit drunk and she turns away. Am I after harassing her? Do I have to ask her first? Where is the magic gone and are we all relegated to some kind of fucked up Tinder situation in the future?
While drunk dudes randomly groping girls etc is totally out of order, you need to be careful as campaigns like this could actually cause more harm than good. Do we want to further atomize our dancefloors? Men need to interact with women and it’s why we are all here in the first place.
Anyway, so I’ve actually read it the above article. It all seems to be over intellectualized and detached from reality, contrived not in the context of the club (ones I personally frequent am familiar with), but more in relation to misogyny as a social ill in general. I have to be honest, I’m always super wary of these ‘campaigns’, it will always turn most people off and it does have a bang of White American Puritanical Protestantism off it. I’d hardly see a German techno lady dressed in black with her tits out in Berghain writing it, lets put it that way. I’d also hazard a guess that most men are scared to even go within 10 feet of these women as they know they would be given short shrift. Maybe supporting the empowerment of women is a more worthy goal?
i am supportive of this endeavour , however:
Scanning the article quickly i was concerned that this may be linked to deeper ‘underlaying issues’ and upon reading it in its entirety i believe that it indeed is.
An interesting quote – “This is especially becoming a serious issue in Seattle, as Capitol Hill’s demographic is shifting from LGBTQ-friendly to a higher percentage of heterosexual men who feel entitled to harass others who are different from them” – oh gosh, i read that as another cry of ‘the mainstream hetro’s are invading our enclave of self exile and celebration of difference’ arrgghhh.
Am i naive to believe that the origins of this ‘movement’ create and bring to the fore issues of gender that are not actually relevant to the issue of consent.
Overt displays of sexuality have been championed by both men and women in the world of nightlife for over two centuries, it’s an integral aspect of such culture. Unfortunately many people lack the decency and/or maturity to ‘behave’ appropriately in such an environment, particularly when alcohol and/or illicit substances are involved, and yes, lets face it ‘security’ employees are often a part of the problem, not the solution, so it really is up to us to look out for those around us.
As was commented it’s not just about ‘girls’ (for want of a better title) , many of we males are regularly ‘groped’ on dance floors by people of various sexes.
This is not a gender issue, it is one of common decency within public space.
Well, we go into that in the interview. Gender clearly is inseparable from the issue, because power imbalance is inseparable from the issue. So that’s both what causes women to more frequently be the object of harassment, and to feel more threatened by it. The latter is important – that means that even when guys are harassed or groped, they may feel more able to respond.
Also, I think you misread the line about Seattle and LGBTQ-friendly parties. No one is saying they’re upset about mainstream heterosexuals showing up at their parties. The complaint I read as meaning queer people are getting harassed by those guys.
And that’s another huge problem. We’re not just talking about some straight guys getting aggressive trying to pick up straight women, but also harassing people for being gay. That’s obviously something that needs to be fixed, because *of course* we want to be able to have everyone party together and still feel safe.
Now, safety is also something everyone needs to think about. So it is absolutely possible for a straight man (or anyone else) to become the victim of an assault, and a victim of violence.
But there’s no reason these discussions need to be mutually exclusive. We really have to talk about all of them – we need to be frank about all victims of assault, abuse, and violence, including men, and we need to talk about why there are imbalances around gender and sexual orientation (and any other identity).
Also, we need to be able to respond to concerns without getting defensive. If I’m out at a club and a friend complains that they were getting groped, obviously, they’re not complaining to me because they think I was the one groping them. 😉 They’re looking for someone to listen to them. And so the same is true online. If people complain online, they want people to listen. They aren’t accusing all men, or all straight men, or all mainstream heterosexuals – I mean, obviously, most of the people who read CDM have never been to Seattle. They’re just looking for someone to hear.
And it’s very much not common decency – in that it’s already commonly indecent.
Ok, so I see a girl in a club and she gives me the eye across the bar. I walk over and start chatting to her and we get on well. I go to give her a kiss as I’m a bit drunk and she turns away. Am I after harassing her? Do I have to ask her first? Where is the magic gone and are we all relegated to some kind of fucked up Tinder situation in the future?
While drunk dudes randomly groping girls etc is totally out of order, you need to be careful as campaigns like this could actually cause more harm than good. Do we want to further atomize our dancefloors? Men need to interact with women and it’s why we are all here in the first place.
Anyway, so I’ve actually read it the above article. It all seems to be over intellectualized and detached from reality, contrived not in the context of the club (ones I personally frequent am familiar with), but more in relation to misogyny as a social ill in general. I have to be honest, I’m always super wary of these ‘campaigns’, it will always turn most people off and it does have a bang of White American Puritanical Protestantism off it. I’d hardly see a German techno lady dressed in black with her tits out in Berghain writing it, lets put it that way. I’d also hazard a guess that most men are scared to even go within 10 feet of these women as they know they would be given short shrift. Maybe supporting the empowerment of women is a more worthy goal?
i am supportive of this endeavour , however:
Scanning the article quickly i was concerned that this may be linked to deeper ‘underlaying issues’ and upon reading it in its entirety i believe that it indeed is.
An interesting quote – “This is especially becoming a serious issue in Seattle, as Capitol Hill’s demographic is shifting from LGBTQ-friendly to a higher percentage of heterosexual men who feel entitled to harass others who are different from them” – oh gosh, i read that as another cry of ‘the mainstream hetro’s are invading our enclave of self exile and celebration of difference’ arrgghhh.
Am i naive to believe that the origins of this ‘movement’ create and bring to the fore issues of gender that are not actually relevant to the issue of consent.
Overt displays of sexuality have been championed by both men and women in the world of nightlife for over two centuries, it’s an integral aspect of such culture. Unfortunately many people lack the decency and/or maturity to ‘behave’ appropriately in such an environment, particularly when alcohol and/or illicit substances are involved, and yes, lets face it ‘security’ employees are often a part of the problem, not the solution, so it really is up to us to look out for those around us.
As was commented it’s not just about ‘girls’ (for want of a better title) , many of we males are regularly ‘groped’ on dance floors by people of various sexes.
This is not a gender issue, it is one of common decency within public space.
Well, we go into that in the interview. Gender clearly is inseparable from the issue, because power imbalance is inseparable from the issue. So that’s both what causes women to more frequently be the object of harassment, and to feel more threatened by it. The latter is important – that means that even when guys are harassed or groped, they may feel more able to respond.
Also, I think you misread the line about Seattle and LGBTQ-friendly parties. No one is saying they’re upset about mainstream heterosexuals showing up at their parties. The complaint I read as meaning queer people are getting harassed by those guys.
And that’s another huge problem. We’re not just talking about some straight guys getting aggressive trying to pick up straight women, but also harassing people for being gay. That’s obviously something that needs to be fixed, because *of course* we want to be able to have everyone party together and still feel safe.
Now, safety is also something everyone needs to think about. So it is absolutely possible for a straight man (or anyone else) to become the victim of an assault, and a victim of violence.
But there’s no reason these discussions need to be mutually exclusive. We really have to talk about all of them – we need to be frank about all victims of assault, abuse, and violence, including men, and we need to talk about why there are imbalances around gender and sexual orientation (and any other identity).
Also, we need to be able to respond to concerns without getting defensive. If I’m out at a club and a friend complains that they were getting groped, obviously, they’re not complaining to me because they think I was the one groping them. 😉 They’re looking for someone to listen to them. And so the same is true online. If people complain online, they want people to listen. They aren’t accusing all men, or all straight men, or all mainstream heterosexuals – I mean, obviously, most of the people who read CDM have never been to Seattle. They’re just looking for someone to hear.
And it’s very much not common decency – in that it’s already commonly indecent.
Ok, so I see a girl in a club and she gives me the eye across the bar. I walk over and start chatting to her and we get on well. I go to give her a kiss as I’m a bit drunk and she turns away. Am I after harassing her? Do I have to ask her first? Where is the magic gone and are we all relegated to some kind of fucked up Tinder situation in the future?
While drunk dudes randomly groping girls etc is totally out of order, you need to be careful as campaigns like this could actually cause more harm than good. Do we want to further atomize our dancefloors? Men need to interact with women and it’s why we are all here in the first place.
Anyway, so I’ve actually read it the above article. It all seems to be over intellectualized and detached from reality, contrived not in the context of the club (ones I personally frequent am familiar with), but more in relation to misogyny as a social ill in general. I have to be honest, I’m always super wary of these ‘campaigns’, it will always turn most people off and it does have a bang of White American Puritanical Protestantism off it. I’d hardly see a German techno lady dressed in black with her tits out in Berghain writing it, lets put it that way. I’d also hazard a guess that most men are scared to even go within 10 feet of these women as they know they would be given short shrift. Maybe supporting the empowerment of women is a more worthy goal?
I do sometimes wonder about why this is such a prevailing attitude. I’ve wondered if we really need to be addressing this kind of interaction at a deeper level, like at school. How to interact with people you don’t know. How to get consent from people. Just things that should be common knowledge but aren’t.
I think we grow up being shown all this media of sexy people dancing in clubs, and that physical attraction just happens, and no words are spoken but suddenly they are dancing together and going home together. I think many people get confused, or even upset in clubs, because this is an unrealistic expectation. No one in their right mind is going to suddenly start grinding up against a stranger. Alcohol and stimulants make the need for connection go up and the reasoning and logic diminish. Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move’. If there was an accepted method of safe interaction, where neither party felt threatened, I think the problem would pretty much disappear. Of course, there will always be people who genuinely get off on crossing boundaries, but I would like to think this is an exception, rather than the rule.
I think this lack of knowledge is also why you get people being harassed in the street, etc. The people doing the harassment don’t want you to be upset (i assume), they want you to like them, but they have absolutely no idea how to do that and it comes out in the most disgusting ways.
Sorry this ended up being a bit of stream of consciousness.
“Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move'”
Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you. For most men, you have no choice than to be the one who makes the move and takes the risk of being rejected. In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone, but in reality it’s not happening.
“””Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you”””
They speak of asexual anglo-saxon puritan countries. Neither man nor woman makes the first move (except out of desperation). They just pretend they don’t care for flirting and/or sex, and keep to themselves.
(I exaggerate of course: this is only true in PC, urban hipster-like circles).
“””In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone”””
That would be tue utmost violation of the other’s privacy — almost rape.
No one should make any move, ever, unless the other has consented for that (which, of course, cannot happen until one makes the first move — hence, logically impossible).
In neo-puritan PC societies, nothing is more disgusting and unwanted as “the other”.
It does not help if you dont have a male role model or two to help with the innate complexities of interacting successfully witb females. Good post.
Or the wrong kind of role model.
Too true.
I do sometimes wonder about why this is such a prevailing attitude. I’ve wondered if we really need to be addressing this kind of interaction at a deeper level, like at school. How to interact with people you don’t know. How to get consent from people. Just things that should be common knowledge but aren’t.
I think we grow up being shown all this media of sexy people dancing in clubs, and that physical attraction just happens, and no words are spoken but suddenly they are dancing together and going home together. I think many people get confused, or even upset in clubs, because this is an unrealistic expectation. No one in their right mind is going to suddenly start grinding up against a stranger. Alcohol and stimulants make the need for connection go up and the reasoning and logic diminish. Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move’. If there was an accepted method of safe interaction, where neither party felt threatened, I think the problem would pretty much disappear. Of course, there will always be people who genuinely get off on crossing boundaries, but I would like to think this is an exception, rather than the rule.
I think this lack of knowledge is also why you get people being harassed in the street, etc. The people doing the harassment don’t want you to be upset (i assume), they want you to like them, but they have absolutely no idea how to do that and it comes out in the most disgusting ways.
Sorry this ended up being a bit of stream of consciousness.
“Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move'”
Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you. For most men, you have no choice than to be the one who makes the move and takes the risk of being rejected. In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone, but in reality it’s not happening.
“””Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you”””
They speak of asexual anglo-saxon puritan countries. Neither man nor woman makes the first move (except out of desperation because nothing is happening for months). They just pretend they don’t care for flirting and/or sex, and keep to themselves.
(I exaggerate of course: this is only true in PC, urban hipster-like circles).
“””In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone”””
That would be a huge violation of the other’s privacy — almost rape.
No one should make ANY move, ever, unless the other has already consented for that move (which, of course, cannot happen until one makes a first move to ask for that concent — hence, logically impossible).
In neo-puritan PC societies, nothing is considered more disgusting and unwanted as “the other”. Having them make a move would totally invade one’s personal space.
It does not help if you dont have a male role model or two to help with the innate complexities of interacting successfully with females. Good post.
[edit – spelling!]
Or the wrong kind of role model.
Too true.
I do sometimes wonder about why this is such a prevailing attitude. I’ve wondered if we really need to be addressing this kind of interaction at a deeper level, like at school. How to interact with people you don’t know. How to get consent from people. Just things that should be common knowledge but aren’t.
I think we grow up being shown all this media of sexy people dancing in clubs, and that physical attraction just happens, and no words are spoken but suddenly they are dancing together and going home together. I think many people get confused, or even upset in clubs, because this is an unrealistic expectation. No one in their right mind is going to suddenly start grinding up against a stranger. Alcohol and stimulants make the need for connection go up and the reasoning and logic diminish. Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move’. If there was an accepted method of safe interaction, where neither party felt threatened, I think the problem would pretty much disappear. Of course, there will always be people who genuinely get off on crossing boundaries, but I would like to think this is an exception, rather than the rule.
I think this lack of knowledge is also why you get people being harassed in the street, etc. The people doing the harassment don’t want you to be upset (i assume), they want you to like them, but they have absolutely no idea how to do that and it comes out in the most disgusting ways.
Sorry this ended up being a bit of stream of consciousness.
“Not to mention the prevailing ethic of ‘a real man makes the first move'”
Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you. For most men, you have no choice than to be the one who makes the move and takes the risk of being rejected. In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone, but in reality it’s not happening.
“””Actually, depending on the country you live in, most women DEMAND that the men make the first move, and they will make it clear to you”””
They speak of asexual anglo-saxon puritan countries. Neither man nor woman makes the first move (except out of desperation because nothing is happening for months). They just pretend they don’t care for flirting and/or sex, and keep to themselves.
(I exaggerate of course: this is only true in PC, urban hipster-like circles).
“””In an ideal world, both should be making the move equally if they are interested in someone”””
That would be a huge violation of the other’s privacy — almost rape.
No one should make ANY move, ever, unless the other has already consented for that move (which, of course, cannot happen until one makes a first move to ask for that concent — hence, logically impossible).
In neo-puritan PC societies, nothing is considered more disgusting and unwanted as “the other”. Having them make a move would totally invade one’s personal space.
It does not help if you dont have a male role model or two to help with the innate complexities of interacting successfully with females. Good post.
[edit – spelling!]
Or the wrong kind of role model.
Too true.
this is a super interesting topic. i think that marketing plays a huge roll in all of this. the dance music scene seems to be extremely sexualized. promoters know that pretty girls get guys into clubs. so they put a girl in a bikini on the flyer and plant this idea in the minds of men that this is what they will find if they come to this club night. there are girls in almost no clothing dancing on stage, on pedestals in a very sexual way. add to this a bunch of liquid courage (alcohol) and there is a perfect set up for some unfortunate things to happen. i would say this is something that men and women both need to take seriously, the guys need to chill and not be aggressive, the girls can look pretty and attractive with out showing everything which makes certain dudes think its a full on invitation.
i think it would be amazing if there was an initiative in dance music to not use sex to market the music and club nights, the issue is that it is absolutely the most effective marketing tool and everything ends up coming down to money. album sales, ticket sales, alcohol sales.
this is a super interesting topic. i think that marketing plays a huge roll in all of this. the dance music scene seems to be extremely sexualized. promoters know that pretty girls get guys into clubs. so they put a girl in a bikini on the flyer and plant this idea in the minds of men that this is what they will find if they come to this club night. there are girls in almost no clothing dancing on stage, on pedestals in a very sexual way. add to this a bunch of liquid courage (alcohol) and there is a perfect set up for some unfortunate things to happen. i would say this is something that men and women both need to take seriously, the guys need to chill and not be aggressive, the girls can look pretty and attractive with out showing everything which makes certain dudes think its a full on invitation.
i think it would be amazing if there was an initiative in dance music to not use sex to market the music and club nights, the issue is that it is absolutely the most effective marketing tool and everything ends up coming down to money. album sales, ticket sales, alcohol sales.
this is a super interesting topic. i think that marketing plays a huge roll in all of this. the dance music scene seems to be extremely sexualized. promoters know that pretty girls get guys into clubs. so they put a girl in a bikini on the flyer and plant this idea in the minds of men that this is what they will find if they come to this club night. there are girls in almost no clothing dancing on stage, on pedestals in a very sexual way. add to this a bunch of liquid courage (alcohol) and there is a perfect set up for some unfortunate things to happen. i would say this is something that men and women both need to take seriously, the guys need to chill and not be aggressive, the girls can look pretty and attractive with out showing everything which makes certain dudes think its a full on invitation.
i think it would be amazing if there was an initiative in dance music to not use sex to market the music and club nights, the issue is that it is absolutely the most effective marketing tool and everything ends up coming down to money. album sales, ticket sales, alcohol sales.
I’m glad that you think I look sexy, but in 2015 dancing and nightclubbing is no more a place to flirt, and the sexual revolution is over.
So, unless I came in with you, that is, you are my partner already, please don’t even think of approaching me unless you fill this paperwork in triple.
Unless of course we’re not in a neo-puritan anglosaxon country, in which case fuck those rules (it’s mostly a fashion thing — even they could not care less until the 80’s), and let’s mingle. If I don’t like you, I’ll let you know.
I’m glad that you think I look sexy, but in 2015 dancing and nightclubbing is no more a place to flirt, and the sexual revolution is over.
So, unless I came in with you, that is, you are my partner already, please don’t even think of approaching me unless you fill this paperwork in triple.
Unless of course we’re not in a neo-puritan anglosaxon country, in which case fuck those rules (it’s mostly a fashion thing — even they could not care less until the 80’s), and let’s mingle. If I don’t like you, I’ll let you know.
I’m glad that you think I look sexy, but in 2015 dancing and nightclubbing is no more a place to flirt, and the sexual revolution is over.
So, unless I came in with you, that is, you are my partner already, please don’t even think of approaching me unless you fill this paperwork in triple.
Unless of course we’re not in a neo-puritan anglosaxon country, in which case fuck those rules (it’s mostly a fashion thing — even they could not care less until the 80’s), and let’s mingle. If I don’t like you, I’ll let you know.
I’m skeptical that such endeavours really go a good way towards solving the actual problem that some people tend to behave like jerks without doing more damage in the process. I feel that these anti-harassment policies that crop up all over the place, even for scientific conferences, cast those people who behave decently in a bad light because it’s hard to draw a clear line between a “permissible” joke, turn of phrase, look, gesture, or converstation and harassment or actions that at least “create a hostile environment.” I feel unwelcome in a place where people feel that I should watch my mouth every second of the day or might hand me cards because they feel that something I said that they overheard creates a hostile environment or whatever. I’m fully aware that I’m mixing up two different but related issues here: The “club” environment and the “conference” environment (for lack of better terms). I foresee a time when it will be deemed inapproriate for human beings to be in a public space together with other human beings because we will have created so many rules that divide people and curtail their individual freedoms (the word individual being very important here) that there is no way that any meaningful face-to-face interaction (or virtual interaction censored by a third party) can take place. I hope that this will never come to pass, but it feels that we are on the way towards such an extreme although as will all such extremes we will never fully reach it.
I’m skeptical that such endeavours really go a good way towards solving the actual problem that some people tend to behave like jerks without doing more damage in the process. I feel that these anti-harassment policies that crop up all over the place, even for scientific conferences, cast those people who behave decently in a bad light because it’s hard to draw a clear line between a “permissible” joke, turn of phrase, look, gesture, or converstation and harassment or actions that at least “create a hostile environment.” I feel unwelcome in a place where people feel that I should watch my mouth every second of the day or might hand me cards because they feel that something I said that they overheard creates a hostile environment or whatever. I’m fully aware that I’m mixing up two different but related issues here: The “club” environment and the “conference” environment (for lack of better terms). I foresee a time when it will be deemed inapproriate for human beings to be in a public space together with other human beings because we will have created so many rules that divide people and curtail their individual freedoms (the word individual being very important here) that there is no way that any meaningful face-to-face interaction (or virtual interaction censored by a third party) can take place. I hope that this will never come to pass, but it feels that we are on the way towards such an extreme although as will all such extremes we will never fully reach it.
I’m skeptical that such endeavours really go a good way towards solving the actual problem that some people tend to behave like jerks without doing more damage in the process. I feel that these anti-harassment policies that crop up all over the place, even for scientific conferences, cast those people who behave decently in a bad light because it’s hard to draw a clear line between a “permissible” joke, turn of phrase, look, gesture, or converstation and harassment or actions that at least “create a hostile environment.” I feel unwelcome in a place where people feel that I should watch my mouth every second of the day or might hand me cards because they feel that something I said that they overheard creates a hostile environment or whatever. I’m fully aware that I’m mixing up two different but related issues here: The “club” environment and the “conference” environment (for lack of better terms). I foresee a time when it will be deemed inapproriate for human beings to be in a public space together with other human beings because we will have created so many rules that divide people and curtail their individual freedoms (the word individual being very important here) that there is no way that any meaningful face-to-face interaction (or virtual interaction censored by a third party) can take place. I hope that this will never come to pass, but it feels that we are on the way towards such an extreme although as will all such extremes we will never fully reach it.
I’m concerned that bullet point 2 is also an instrument of coercion. To the aggressor, “through each interaction” could be read as “breaking the barriers down”, “setting things up”, or compliance, which corresponds with a common predatorial tactic.
I’m concerned that bullet point 2 is also an instrument of coercion. To the aggressor, “through each interaction” could be read as “breaking the barriers down”, “setting things up”, or compliance, which corresponds with a common predatorial tactic. And its sad to think lots of this behavior passes as a game.
I’m concerned that bullet point 2 is also an instrument of coercion. To the aggressor, “through each interaction” could be read as “breaking the barriers down”, “setting things up”, or compliance, which corresponds with a common predatorial tactic. And its sad to think lots of this behavior passes as a game.
Peter, I think it’s great that you are using your blog to talk about social issues and not only about the newest piece of gear.
Peter, I think it’s great that you are using your blog to talk about social issues and not only about the newest piece of gear.
Peter, I think it’s great that you are using your blog to talk about social issues and not only about the newest piece of gear.
Good artlce, slightly off the usual topics but needs saying. I dont get other guys who don’t take no for an answer – besides if I am at a club I have usually been too wasted to do much more than grab a kebab and a night bus home!
Good artlce, slightly off the usual topics but needs saying. I dont get other guys who don’t take no for an answer – besides if I am at a club I have usually been too wasted to do much more than grab a kebab and a night bus home!
Good artlce, slightly off the usual topics but needs saying. I dont get other guys who don’t take no for an answer – besides if I am at a club I have usually been too wasted to do much more than grab a kebab and a night bus home!
If you are making someone uncomfortable, YOU are the problem. There seem to be way too many men here splitting hairs (why that is eludes me). Just let it go and ally with the people experiencing the problem.
If you are making someone uncomfortable, YOU are the problem. There seem to be way too many men here splitting hairs (why that is eludes me). Just let it go and ally with the people experiencing the problem.
If you are making someone uncomfortable, YOU are the problem. There seem to be way too many men here splitting hairs (why that is eludes me). Just let it go and ally with the people experiencing the problem.
Aww for fucks sake. Look a “Consent is sexy” card…rape averted. How about a “Too many dicks on the dancefloor” warning indicator?
Naive, reductionist and off-topic.
Aww for fucks sake. Look a “Consent is sexy” card…rape averted. How about a “Too many dicks on the dancefloor” warning indicator?
Naive, reductionist and off-topic.
Aww for fucks sake. Look a “Consent is sexy” card…rape averted. How about a “Too many dicks on the dancefloor” warning indicator?
Naive, reductionist and off-topic.